been thinking about this, year winding down & all, and thought i'd field it to the crowd.

how about:

• categories suggested by posters, then polled to select a final ten.
• nominations posted and voted for each category
• erm... that's it (though a lavish winning ceremony would be kinda nice).

or: keep it to best/worst overall?

         

if we go for categories, i'd suggest including these: most fun best new director best low budget worst video breakthrough video

oh, and: sorry for the pedestrian logo, ianagd.

         

best art direction

         

best cinematography.

         

P, it would help if we could do two things:

1. Get this award thing noticed by the trades.
2. Actually have an award to give, even if it's a classy piece of stationary with solid text.

With number 1 being the priority as we're already near the point of "suckin our own whatevers"

videos.antville.org

         

I've been thinking about it for a while as well. I'm uncertain if this place can functionally handle all of the divergent categories. While I think it would be nice, the logistics of it can make such an idea fail. I'd be glad to host and develop a more stable "voting page" and host it on videoville (not in the wiki), then offload the results onto antville.

As for nominations, I was thinking, particularly for best video, that we get everyone's faves (fave 5? 3?). Vote on the longlist to create a shortlist of 10 (15?, 20?); then, of course, vote on those to get the winner.

I'm also concerned, as happened last year with the sudden ballot-stuffing (I assumed, as most of those votes happened in the span of a few hours) of Morningwood "Nth Degree", that this could easily garner attention of potential ballot-stuffers, which would nullify the awards in general, and cause way too much debate about the final award, which would degrade the quality of it.

Any thoughts on this? As said, I'm willing to host and work on a voting system/site (I may need some help on that - I haven't looked into that yet), then afterwards reveal all results to keep the tabulations as crystal clear to everyone as possible. I'm unsure if we should reveal who voted for which?

         

As for the voting system itself (maybe I should offload this tangent onto a new post? Two posts: one about categories, another about voting system?) I think a simple registration may help keep the voting well audited. It would be nice if the registration let people identify or even use their antville username, to keep the proceedings pretty clean. But anyway, that's if people think the antville polling system isn't up to the task.

         

i'm up for this. antville seems to be an extremely critical website and it would be interesting to see what we all go for. i would imagine the industry would take note too, seeing as a lot of professionals use this site...

         

let's wait & see what the consensus is about just sticking to best/worst or actually getting into categories, etc.

at the risk of jumping the gun: i think antville polling, by affording complete anonymity, is easily gamed, so not suitable for final voting. i think most folks would have no problem casting their ballots openly, simply in a comment (which somebody would then need to tally). polling is probably ok for sorting out the categories, though.

setting up a separate site, with separate registration, is likely a recipe for low turn-out.

probably also a good idea to avoid a too-tiered nomination/voting process.

once the categories are established, there should only be two steps: ideally, one favourite per person per category should give quite a sizable list of nominees.

there'd then be a post (with direct links) of the top 4 nominees for all ten categories, with an invitation for final voting - one vote per person per category, chosen from those nominees, via a posted comment (again with someone to tally the final results).

what say?

         

By fanboys, for fanboys. I think we could guess the results before the videos are even made.

         

Ballott Stuffing is a SERIOUS problem.

ONE way to avoid ballot stuffing is to have the voting/nominations ONLY for a select list of 25-50 or so Antvillers. Of course a lot of infrequent posters would find this unfair but it probably would be the most consistent way to get results worth merit.

I think kevathens and progosk could easily draw up a list of the power-posters. And then people could make a request to be on the list.

I mean, the VMAs are chosen by a cabal of executives, right? And then they have the Viewer's Choice Award; which we can do and give to your Morningwood videos.

One way to find how many posts people have done is to give it a google number. For example, site:videos.antville.org captainmarc22 gives a 3760. progosk gets a 5290. dickensian_hero 339. pressrecord 450. bangguru gets a 2.

A threshold can be established; and that will weed out your people who just signed up to stuff ballots.

Even a real email registry vote could cause problems; we all know how easy it is to get a few email addresses; or ask your friends to jump in the vote. And if we're talking about votes winning with a margin of 2; than all the more reason to cheat.

Okay sort of elitist and snobby but isn't that what we love about antville?

         

[Reponse to progosk]

I pretty much dig that, though anonymous types can stuff ballots with countless erroneous usernames, rendering the system, again, useless. There must be a way to account for the lurkers, as well as the industry types who like visiting antville occasionally.

A suggestion: Let only ppl who nominate (via comments) vote on the awards. This would help alleviate Fergie fans busting the doors down.

Only problem: 'Worst Video' use may be limited to non-industry users - not cool.

Side note 1: I'm wondering if the nomination process should require a press release, or just tell antvilleans to get their friends (and industry types) in on the process during the limited nomination time-frame.

Site note 2: The tricky part with only 1 nomination is that some people will enjoy posting their favorite 5 or 10 vids of the year, myself included, and this will also prompt discussion. So it would be good to outline that in the, er, 'rules' of engagement: Your first posted video will be considered the nomination.

And: top 4 nominees? I dig odd numbers, m'self.

[Reponse to c-marc] I don't dig the idea of an executive set of nominators. While people can argue antville's elitism til the cows come home, it just doesn't suit the voting process well, imo. Not that I'm elitist or anything.

I like the Viewer's Choice idea, and the nominator threshold.

         

kev come on; you and progosk rule antville. but in a good way.

We should just deal with the google threshold.

How about this - we have a thread where people nominate and 'ask' to be in the antville voting cabal. I can think of 25 people or so; but I'm sure collectively we can all find the final list of 50+. Other posters will check on the validity and be elitist snobs and say 'bangguru, you've only posted on antville twice. maybe next year'

At the end, progosk will act as a moderator and compile a final list.

again; viewer's choice awards WILL lead to ballot stuffing. And when Morningwood wins the list has no validity.

BUT if we get a really awesome, Morningwood-free list; it will get attention. Seriously; who else makes music video lists? Music mags and individual bloggers. The antville list CAN be something that will launch careers.

         

And then... if we go with a cabal vote; we would not be able to use the antville voting system. Which is fun but I'm pretty sure you can't make it select.

So again; a moderator (progosk; who came up with this idea) to tally votes which will be in the form of an individual post.

         

[to c'marc's first reply] I know what you're saying, but what about the lurkers (esp. industry types) whose vote may be a bit more informed than ours? I think the process is also a bid to court industry types onto antville, in a way.

Very good last point, there.

         

I think the meaning/intent of the 'worst video' category needs to be clarified. This site has countless videos that are hopelessly amateur or just too boring to watch. There is also lots of intentional ironic badness.

Excluding those, I feel like you have two categories that don't necessarily overlap. There are the unintentionally so-bad-it's-good, like car wrecks you can't help but stare at. And then you have the infuriating/disappointing, where a director blessed with a great song or huge budget turns in something remarkably lazy and/or stupid.

That said, nothing immediately pops into my mind. It takes something pretty special to be really bad but still make people sit through it and remember it months later.

         

nah fuck industry types; they have their own awards. I think we could make a much better list than the MVPAs and definitely better than the VMAs.

this will be cool because the repeat commentors view a lot and post a lot and DON'T have any industry obligations; whether they're not connected or post anonymously.

I mean, have Carpark North "Human" or the Presets "Are you the One?" showed up on any lists last year? Sometimes those awards are bogged down with red tape; labels have to submit on time; and sometimes are barred due to lack of international distribution.

         

najork: Good point. I think the idea in the worst post of videos called to the mat is what I like, personally. Perhaps that's a category title?

c'marc: You have a point, perhaps, given that 102 voted in the last 'Best of' awards, 42 in the 'Worst of' category. I think there may be some more activity this year, though. Still, the elitist/lurker aspect haunts me a bit.

(BBL) (be back later)

         

Isn't the worst video of the year already sort of a forgone conclusion? I think worst should be reserved pretty much only for videos that had a budget and high profile artist to work with. It should mean overhyped, lazy, derivative or just plain bad.

Also I think the idea of only a select group being allowed to vote is kind of bullshit. Doing the votes as actual posts seems like it would make it harder to ballot stuff. It would be pretty obvious if 20 new names vote for morningwood in a span of ten minutes.

         

Isn't the worst video of the year already sort of a forgone conclusion? I think worst should be reserved pretty much only for videos that had a budget and high profile artist to work with. It should mean overhyped, lazy, derivative or just plain bad.

The word you're searching for is Popozao.

         

otc: Maybe you're right? Though I think 'stuffers' would try to be less obvious in their practice, perhaps Antville can debate the final results or, as with the last time, let a judge/advisory panel be the final decider if something like that comes up.

         

Kevathens: I agree with your idea to let the final say derrived through debate. After all, the best thing about Antville is that everyone gets to put in their 2 cents (or in many cases 50 cents) worth - which ultimately leaves us at thet round-about consensus of a video's worth. If this does leave the ground, we should make the antville awards as debatable as the forums themselves (which is what we're best at).

I think a random voting poll is doomed for failure because the panel-like discussion (provided by our comments) is absent.

The Antville MVA's should be the definitive consensus - held in the place where the music video industry has now ended up (the web) - judged primarily by those who still care (the average antville user). Which is something MTV has lost grasp of.

We will have our Salon des Refusés.

         

i don't see shouts to limit this to best&worst, so... how bout:

1. everybody can suggest categories (for clarity's sake, perhaps in a new post) via comments
2. once those are in (2/3 days?) they get polled (2/3 days?)
3. ten most voted categories get posted in a call for nominations
4. nominations are made by individual post in comments. i'm pretty convinced that even only 1 nomination per category per voter will get all the great stuff in there (assembling faves is kinda done in the monthly faves digests, no?). ok, make it 2 (so we're sure to have enough numbers/variety). nomination period lasts a week. oh, and: everyone should indicate their nominee for the rôle of antville talleyman.

NB: any obvious attempts to game nominations will be called out by the antville hive and mercilessly quashed. (i'm confident it'll all be pretty self-evident, and i don't think a committee's necessary.)

5. once nominations are in and tallied, the top 5 nominees for each category are listed in one big post, which will include screencaps, direct links to qt's, as well as links to the original antville post. the same post will be the call for final votes; these will again be done by posts in the comments, 1 vote per category per person. the voting period lasts 5 days.

NB: any obvious attempts to game final votes will be called out by the antville hive and mercilessly quashed.

6. once final votes are in and tallied, the winners will be announced in a ceremonial award-winner post. the gala party ensues.

thoughts:

• some sort of prize would be cool. any ideas how/what?
• decent participation is all that counts; the full nominees post will likely make the rounds. no need to kiss industry arse.
• the google threshold isn't totally accurate, but will come in useful in quashing. i'm expecting antville will prove to be the self-selecting place it pretty much always is.
• re: worries about the "worst" category: it ain't even been polled yet, so hold yer 'orses.

         

award ideas:

• Winning videos will be hosted and given special placement on the website.

• Winning video directors will be given special antville t-shirts with the AVMA logo and year.

• It would be nice to publish a yearly DVD of all the winning videos and distribute a certain amount by request and a few dollars. I know I wouldn't mind shelling out 10 bucks a year for a DVD of some of the year's best and ecclectic videos. This would also be sent along with a t-shirt to the winning directors.

• Also, it would be great if Antville could host a yearly screening of the winning videos at a local spot - where money could be raised in the form of DVD distribution (and possible t-shirt sales) for the event. Monkeytown in Brooklyn hosts some great music video screenings. Booking isn't that pricey either. I'm sure an awarded director wouldn't mind showing up and taking a few Q&As to recieve his award at one of these events either. Be cool to post the recorded Q&As on Antville afterwards for those who couldn't be there.

We're gunna need volunteers to help with the award system regardless.

         

I still think people dig "lists of faves", especially in the best-of category (okay, progosk doesn't), so it should be stated that that is allowed, but the first 2 are counted as the nominees. Since nominations may be widely diverse, I think 3 would be better.

Antville talleyman should be decided here, in this post.

Prize should relate to what the creatives here do best: create.

Timetable: Nominating categories happens late Sunday, December 3rd, ends Dec 6. Voting on categories happens afternoon of Wed, Dec 6. Ends and is tallied Sat, Dec 9.

Call for nominations late Dec 10, end Dec 14. Voting takes place Dec 16-20. Winner announced Dec 21? Xmas is tough to navigate.

         

yay: Nice! The DVD raises issues of copyright/clearances, perhaps. How many of us based around NYC, anyway? Everyone to Ohio, if I had my say.

         

a prize, c'mon, that's retarded. who's gonna pay for it?

A better prize would be some sort of press release. Would be neat to get an article on videostatic; or maybe even Boards or SHOOT.

I'm confident the final list will be pretty cool and contain a lot of below-the-radar videos.

prog your set-up sounds pretty good.

I think the DVD thing sounds again like a financial/logistic issue.

What would make more sense would be to torrent a zip file which contained the 10 videos in DVD format (a folder w/ a VIDEO_TS folder). People could download and burn their own DVD. If not that; then maybe the 10 as 640x480 ipod ready videos.

And I'd say blah to the screenings - LA? NY? Aren't a lot of people in Europe? I think the reason a lot of people stopped going to music video screenings is because they've already seen the stuff on antville.

         

timetable - any reason why this should wait til december to get rolling - could all be moved up by 2 weeks, no? battons le fer quand il est chaud...

of nominations - alright already, 3 per person per category.

dvd - with all the rampant copyparanoia, a bootleg dvd would be in perfect antville style ;-o i'd have little problem making a small run, but t-shirt revenues would be nice to offset material&shipping costs... so who's gonna do a serious logo & tshirt design? sales thru videoville?

hosting&special placement - not actually possible on antville; unlikely to be something the label crowd would be after anyway, i guess...

         

Okay, move the timetable up 1 week - There are still videos released after Dec. 7th, even 20th. (Videostatic's last 2005 "MTV adds" update was Dec 14th)

         

Wouldn't we still have to go through copyright issues to obtain SD videos from production? Unless we fill the downloadable DVDs with low res mpg4s...I have something like the RES dvds in mind for the awards. Would it be too much trouble for someone to mail production studios for a press release of their video?

Captainmarc: Yeah, gunna be hard finding funds for all of this. So maybe a tangible prize is out of the question. But I think we should definitely come out of this with some sort of archival medium - be it a DVD or a downloadable movie file with all the winning videos. The DVDs might pay for themselves if non-profit royalties are obtained for distro.

As for screenings: Yeah, actually - I thought a lot of Antville users were based in NYC. Maybe I'm wrong.

An article in any publication would be super cool - above all. I agree, this sort of user-based award system would really garnish a lot of hype in the indie-filmaking/design publications.

Progosk: I could offer my design skills for some AVMA logos that we could all vote on.

         

aye, cap'n, a bootleg torrent definitely. unlikely we'd get sd for most videos, but then - that's life during wartime...

         

NB: Category nomination: via comments, then tab'd Category voting: via antville polling system

         

yup. (it'll actually have to be multiple polls - one per proposed category - in one post to allow multiple votes.)

ok - too much from me already. it's everyone's place. make y'self heard.

         

An antville DVD would be awesome, I'd definitely put in for that. A t-shirt would be nice if it were actually well-designed which I'm sure someone on here could do. A screening and Q&A would work if someone actually wanted to put in the time to promote it. Here in Austin they have music video screenings at a local theatre and I regularly see 50+ people attend. It's just that only a few actual antville people would be able to attend. BTW this all seems like how RES got started.

         

Is voting definitive best of for a year not a step towards turning an open and qualitative forum into a quantitative arbiter of quality? Don't get me wrong, I love the little polls that come along, but the fact that they're never definitive and end up breaking down into a debate again is part of their charm.

Bests and worsts are fun, but doomed to failure - pockets of consensus or polarisation that form spontaneously are much more interesting.

Here's a wildcard alternative for something DVD and geographically based that might feel more inclusive and consensus driven:

Nominations and votes for best videos of 2006 are canvassed via the site. The top 20 are compiled as a downloadable DVD, which becomes the basis for Antville Festival screenings in various cities round the world. Maybe, those who attend and watch all 20 videos back to back cast their votes, the results of which are fed back to Antville central.

Plus Kev and Prog fly round the world and do live Q&As. :-)

         

I could totally help put the dvd thing together. Would be great if a graphic designer(s) also came on board for menus and the like.

As for SD versions, is it crazy to just contact a director/prod co and ask for a digibeta to which we can then return post digitize? Or maybe set up an ftp to which said creatives can simply upload a D1 version of their piece?

The screenings sound a little silly and cost intensive, but the idea of linking some antvilleans together (outside of the random emails - haha) would be really great.

         

Cool ideas, and nice to see everyone rallying together. I think only two of these ideas are actually do-able, since some sound really cost/time intensive. I think a video collection that's organized by Prog and Kev, (not by a mass vote, too prone to error and ballot-stuffing) that could be sold online as the "videos.antville 2006 collection" and a low-key screening of said video in Los Angeles and NYC. C'mon, what do you say? I think Prog and Kev put more time in to this site than everyone else combined, and as a whole they represent (to me, at least) the overall vibe of the site. Plus screenings in the two key markets would be a great way to actually get people people from this site together in the, gasp, physical world.

         

Also, Ben is right. Having a big mass vote turns this site into less of a discussion and more of an ILX site for videos, which is no fun and pointless. Who cares what video is best/worst of the year? I just want to see all of the show-stoppers at once.

         

spit: "Who cares what video is best/worst of the year?" jeez don't read the results then. I'd love to see what ends up as five nominees and one winner.

Am I the only one that thinks having a live event to bring people to a website is... retarded?

Antville is cool because it's decentralized and all the links are 'free'. Placing it in a location or a for-cost product is a disaster waiting to happen. I think you guys are overestimating antville's importance - it would be nice to get some press but hold the phone on creating Antville™ brand products and events.

Pitchfork once put out a book that was a total disaster.

I'd just hate to see some music video fan go into debt because of an ill-fated idea by a bunch of posters.

lusk: Directors/production companies can send over m2v & AIFF files - much quicker/easier than sending over 6GB d1 files.

         

dvd - m2v&aiff is the likely solution, whether they're then torrented or actually burnt - but the real problem is permissions from labels. i wouldn't hold my breath for those. (also: surely it should be a double-dvd, the 50 nominees&winners on one, with all the 400?-odd monthly faves as ipod-mp4's on the other, no?)

real-world - parties are rarely retarded. but, yeah, i'm a bit agnostic on this front too..

         

If the regular antville folks really feel the need to stamp Best on some videos maybe they ought to consider what other awards shows are out there. With MVPA serving the industry stateside, MTV serving pop culture etc. Antville's only appropriate angle is as a people's choice place. And that said I just want to point out that while I truly appreciate and respect everyone above's excitement ideas and enthusiasm, I didn't have to scroll down very far before I noticed something way off.

This entire string is 2/3 written by 3 or 4 people. You might ask yourselves with certainly thousands of regulars stopping by why so few are weighing in here. I read on and I start seeing bits about eliticism and the regular antvillians being the judges. Kev Progorsk etc... again I appreciate your love of videos but guys this is exactly how you disinterest people from participating, A club house approach is really off putting.

         

erm - i should really shut up, coz folks are getting the wrong impression - howeva:

quix - plz read again. my proposal is that this be open to everybody, the only proviso being that since votes would be in public, in comments, any ballot stuffing will be obvious and ignored in the final tallies.

no committees, no judges, i think i made that clear. (self-selection will be at work, so there's simply no need.)

if that ain't the people's choice, i don't know what is.

i nominate quix to be the talleyman!

         

LOL trust me you dont want me doing the math.

         

I wish u well lads after such a large thread summit has to come ov it I jus' hope ur able to motivate ppl like me to vote (I certainly won't be doing it nex polling day to keep the Labour Party tosspots in power)

Actually I do have an ulterior motive for joining this thread and that is wot woz the title ov pitchforks failed book?

         

i nominate robodrug to write the press release!

         

I absolutely second that nomination!

         

quix - I just thought most ppl would be uninterested in making work for themselves. I think this is why the May digest didn't happen and most Antvillers don't bother with Videoville.

I do get totally inspired, though, which is why I go overboard. Progosk is probably the same way. Sorry! I'm a web dude!

         

category ideas: Best Animation Best Visual F/X Best Dancing Best Narative Best Performance Shortest Deadline

         

kev and prog could also do the q&a´s via internet conference talk from their pc-room at home, no?

category idea addition: most calm, silent videos

         

Oh bollox! Groan! seems I walked into that! If I was to seriously consider i'd need sum old previous caption n write up to familiarise meself with what is roughly required 'n a deadline

I have to warn u, I'm a tog not a blunt Still whats the worst I can do - fail!

tog - photographer blunt - writer
(couldn't be arsed to link the slang I'd have to dig thu pages of the Urban Dictionary)

         

more categories! (robo - you'll do jes fine)

         

Best video with a box of grass around the singer's head...??

         

Or maybe best video with mates of state paper cut-outs..?? just a thought.

         

I'd like to see: Best urban video (R&B/Hip-hop/Rap) I'll 2nd Best breakthrough video Best, um, oblique (not-obvious) video?

         

Most unlikely creative success.

Largest download in a music video.

Best use of scant resources.

Best Antville comment of the year.

         

I like ur misplaced faith in me prog!

On the ballot stuffin question - can't votes be linked to the IP address of ppls computers surely thats recorded on the antville server somewhere?

Right I'll look in again late tomorrow, got sum photoshoppin' to do on dope I made a pigs ear ov (comes from buying cameras cheap, which unfortunately have French manuals, a language I can't read) Later!

         

categories, keep'em coming!

ben - just to make sure: best use of scant resources = best low budget, no? most downloads - where? u2b?! most unlikely creative success - erm... huh?

robo - ballot stuffers will be caught red-handed and jeered. they'll also be forced to wear wet socks to bed and their breakfast coffee spat into. voilà.

         

Prog:

Best use of scant resources, is quality relative to funds. It's not necessarily about being low budget. We often don't even know the budget. But there's a certain kind of resourcefulness that makes something special out of not very much. It's a category especially tailored to much of the stuff that gets posted on Antville and doesn't get much other exposure. Some of them are brilliant.

Largest download = the largest, most uncompressed file posted. To encourage the posting of high quality QTs. Maybe 'most pristine video compression' is better.

Most unlikely creative success: The video that by all accounts is ridiculous, wholly inappropriate for the artist, the most outlandish doomed-to-failure idea, that somehow works out.... an award for trying something out-there and pulling it off.

Antville needs some alternative categories from the standard MTV fare.

         

ben:

best online video quality - check!

best use of scant resources - i wish there were a clearer wording for this... most resourceful?

most unlikely success - an ugly-duckling/frog-cum-prince sort of thing? again, it'd be nice to nail it in 3 words... the long shot? the omg-wtf-roflcopter?

         

How 'bout....

Most outlandish creative gamble?

(Although the omg-wtf-roflcopter has a certain ring to it!)

Still thinking about the other one...

         

G'awd, its nine miles long and growing daily! Press release 'The post that ate Antville'

         

hey...so i'm coming into this a bit late, but i've read the mile long post and had this thought about the 'award' (and like the idea of the site getting more publicity over all other options). one thought was that the director's of the top videos can submit a little commentary video. i bet almost all directors have access to a crappy dv camera that they could shoot themselves talking about the video, showing storyboards, photos, what have you... and upload it to antville. that could add a whole new level to the winning videos. cause if we like 'em so much then maybe we would want to know a bit more about them.

it helps the site because it's more reasons people might check it out.

and the incentive to the director is more publicity for themselves. big names might be a bit more reluctant but then we'll just shit talk them until they cave in.

there could also be an actual award that is as simple as a paper certificate you'd get in primary school. and it should be printed on a dot matrix printer. and laminated. very old school.

anyway...just some thoughts. rip them apart or agree with them.